DOKAN 6/Dokan 06.iso/Webs/www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/file-archive/oshii.interview

Internet Message Format | 1998-09-05 | 19KB

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 00:58:46 EDT
From: Ryoko Toyama <[e-mail]>
Subject: Oshii Interview

(Many thanks to Brian Stacy San for editing :)

Oshii Mamoru Interview: 'Miyazaki-San and Takahata-San are
outrageously energetic.  I can't take my eye off them.'

[OSHII Mamoru is the director of such movies as 'Angel's Egg'
'Uruseiyatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer', 'Patlabor' (1&2).]

Interviewer: ISHII Rika

>From Kinema Jyunpo Special Issue: 'Miyazaki Hayao, Takahata Isao to
Studio Ghibli no Animation tachi'.  1995, No. 1166, July 16th.  Copyright:
Kinema Jyunpo Sha, 1995.

Translated without permission for *personal entertainment purposes only*.
The translator is solely responsible for any mistranslation or
misunderstanding due to it.

(  ) are added by the translator to supplement the words to make things
easier to understand.

This is *not*, by any means, an accurate word for word translation.  The
translator simply does not have the capability, the patience, or the
dictionary for that (excuses, excuses ^^;;).

____________________________________________________________
______


'Anchor', the joint project which wasn't realized

  I met Miya-San for the first time in 1983, for an interview in 'Animage'.  It
was right after I finished directing my first film, and he was more like a
god.  The first (work of) Miya-San's I saw was 'Conan the Future Boy'.  It
was on the air when I joined Tatsunoko Production to be a director, so I
was really blown away by it.

[Side Note: Tatsunoko Production is a studio which produced 'Speed
Racer' and 'G-Force'.  It was the very first anime studio Oshii-San worked
for.]

I had a feeling that we would meet some day, but it was sooner than I
expected, so I was really nervous.
  My first impression was that he was a really light hearted person. But
when the conversation got heated, he was really merciless, and I was told
many harsh things -laughs-.  So it ended with the impression like 'What a
SOB!'.
  He is unbelievably energetic.  The point where I thought he and I were
alike was that he is really aggressive and talks a lot.  It's the same with
Takahata-San, it's like the one who talks more wins.  There is no idle
chatting when we talk.  (We?) always try to convince the other -laughs-.
So it's really tiresome.  I myself think the winning rate is .5.  We've been
busy these days, so we can't meet more than once a year, but once we
meet, we always end up like that.
  Since Takahata-San works at the same place as Miya-San, I often meet
him, and we talk from time to time.  There was even a project which we
three were going to do.  I think it was after 'Angel's Egg' (1985), it was a
Ghibli project called 'Anchor'.  I think Miya-San was going to be the
producer, I was going to be the director, and Takahata-San was going to
produce too.  We three got together and made a plot, but one night, we
had a big fight and disagreement, and I quit.
  On the surface, Takahata-San also likes to argue and has a passion to
convince others, but he is very different inside.  Miya-San has something
sweet in him, and in the end, it comes down to (for him) 'what's good is
good, though it's not logical'.  In the case of Takahata-San, he is consistent.
He is a person of logic.  I heard that OTSUKA Yasuo San once said that
Takahata-San is walking logic, and I'm logic riding a bike -laughs-.
  I guess I should be able to get along with Takahata-san better (than Miya-
San), but, film-wise, I sympathize more with what Miya-San makes.  I feel
that a part of Takahata-San is a bit cold. He is like a person who doesn't
get hurt or feel failure fundamentally.
  He doesn't say what he wants to say up front like Miya-San does.  He
looks like a warm guy, but once something happens, he totally changes.
It's like he gets a totally different personality.  When he denies someone, he
denies everything about that person, including their personality.  I think of
him as a Stalinist -laughs-.  Miya-San is a bit like a Trotskyist, but for me,
they are both men (Ojisan) of '60 Anpo, having very intimidating
tendencies.  Especially, it's really something when they intimidate the young
staff members.  It's totally different from their everyday smiling nature.
They get totally different personalities once they are in a project.

[Side Note: "'60 Anpo" is the opposition movement against the extension
of Japan-US Security Agreement (Anpo) in 1960.  There are certain
personalities, tendencies, and cultures common among those who
participated in this movement.  Oshii-San, on the other hand, is the '70
Anpo generation, which had a totally different culture from the '60 Anpo.]


'Studio Ghibli is (like) the Kremlin'

  In short, in the '60s way of saying things, if the end is just, the means don't
matter.  I think that for them, making a movie is still a kind of extension of
the union movement.  Making strategy, organizing people, and purging
traitors - it's the same.  There are agitation and intimidation characteristics
to any popular movement.  Basically, it's a thorough organizing to carry
out the top's will.
  I think Studio Ghibli is (like) the Kremlin -laughs-.  The real one is long
gone, but it's still sitting in the middle of the field in Higashi Koganei.  But
in a sense, there is a reason for it's existence, meaning, I think it plays a
certain role by existing.  Just like those steel-like athletes could not be
produced other than in the communist countries, a certain kind of people
can not be produced by the principals of the market economy.
  There should be a type of animator who can be fostered only by Ghibli,
where the level of staff is really high, from in-between to painting.  So, it
can be valued in the sense that it cultured (such staff members) purely, but
if you ask me if it's totally right, I'd say I don't think so.  I think they should
be disbanded immediately -laughs-.  I think it would be more meaningful if
those who grew up at Ghibli would go outside.
  However, there are things that only Ghibli can do, and if it disappears, the
tradition would disappear.  But that's a relative value, and as for an
individual value, I think they should be disbanded immediately.  It's the
same with the question of whether it got better after the Soviet Union was
disbanded, but I think for creative work, anarchy is at least better than
freedom under a state power.
  It's like Miya-San is the chairman, and Takahata-San is the head of the
party, or the president of the Russian Republic.  Producer Suzuki is
definitely the chief of KGB.  But the things that are made and the reality of
the organization which makes them are two totally different things.  People
who think such cohesion is good flock there.
  What do other animators think of Ghibli?  As far as I know, they basically
respect Ghibli.  It's half love, and half hate.  A general response would be:
It's a tremendous place, but I don't want to go there.  Because they control
you too tightly (at Ghibli).  For example, (they tell you) come in at 10 in
the morning and go home at 10 in the evening, and you just keep on
working for one or two years.  At my place, no one comes in till evening,
and no one knows who is doing what.  And (the project) ends within 8 to
10 months cause I get bored.  This is a more common way (of making
animation).
  I myself have been invited several times, but the biggest reason why I
don't want to work at Ghibli is because the control is too tight -laughs-.
And there aren't many good food places around Ghibli.  I can't tolerate
poor eating.  Those two are not interested in eating.  One instance shows
all, they push their ideology, or rather, their constitution to everybody.
(They say) it's best if you come into the studio in the morning and go home
at night, not because they think so, but because they can't do otherwise.
  Well, it's (like) the military or a (political) party, and for some, it's a good
order, but for some, it's an intolerable fascism. However, it is certain that
only by such mountains of tight control, such movies can be made.
  A movie director always has a conflict inside of him, between the need to
do what he wants to do and how far he can force others to make sacrifices.
Because he can't do anything without others' help.  Everyone has a
different strategy, but I think all these differences come from ideological
issues.  Those two aren't moralists.  The lack of ethics is common among
men in the '60s.  They definitely think that if there is a validity, or a 'just
cause' (Nishiki no Mihata), they are allowed to do anything.  In a sense,
that's the thing I most hate about them, and that's what keeps me from
liking them in the end.
  For me, it's better if the end and the means match, though it's almost
impossible.  To cope with the reality, they use intimidation and refuting.  I
trick (staff members), or in nicer words, I try to find common interests
(with staff members).  I try to accept certain things even if they are against
my will, or I try to think I'll get payback for that sometime later.
  Some anime magazines and manga magazines praise Ghibli as the best
animation studio in Japan, or in the world, and say such things as it's the
conscience of the Japanese anime industry, but that's all a lie -laughs-.
Anyone who's been there even once would know that.  Well, I'm not going
to deny everything (about Ghibli), but if you worship them like that, it will
only make people (at Ghibli) miserable.  And indeed they are miserable, so
I'm hoping they would stop (worshipping them).  Someone should criticize
them somewhere.  Though to do that, you really need forcefulness and
resolution.
  Apart from Takahata-San, Miya-San has a somewhat shady past.  Such
aspects also consitutue who Takahtata-San and Miya-San are.  You
shouldn't make him a god.  Since he is the one who has to carry that
burden.  I think that's one of the reasons why he struggled and struggled,
and is still struggling today.


'What (stories) will they tell now, in this era?'

  They are probably at a loss right now, more than ever.  I think they are in
great confusion, not knowing what to make now.  Though I guess it's the
same with everybody.  Both Miya-San and Takahata-San are the kind of
people who wouldn't make a film unless they could justify the cause (to
make the film) to the world, and to themselves, after thinking through why
they make this film now.  Considering the situation as it is now, I think it
must be harder for them.
  They think they are responsible for staff members and audience.  It's a
very important thing for them, but that's a limitation of men of the '60s
Anpo.  I don't think I have to be responsible.  The thing, 'being responsible',
itself breeds fascism, and if I'm responsible for anything, it should be just
for myself.
  More than anyone, he himself knows that his next movie, 'Mononoke
Hime'
won't hold up (as a story) in principle.  How in the world can he make a
story like 'They defeated the evil sheriff, and the village folks lived happily
ever after', in this era?  The world is filled with stories about things
becoming worse after an evil sheriff got defeated, so how can he make
children believe in (such a story)?  The story of 'defeat the dictator', like
'Horus: Prince of the Sun' could be believed in back then, but what's the use
of doing 'Horus' now?
  Until now, they kept at least one thing; not making a film unless they have
an answer to the question of how they face the current era and what to say.
If they start making (films) even though they know (what they are saying)
is a lie, there will be terrible consequences.  Since their belief system will
totally crumble away.


'Criticizing Takahata's and Miyazaki's works'

  After all, we don't have many friends in the anime industry.  Since it is a
craftsmen's world, there is a strong sentiment against criticizing others'
work, so Miya-San, Takahata-San, or me, those who go around and
badmouth loudly can not be liked.  I suppose there are tons of people who
talk behind others' backs, though.  I myself think that since it's a fair game,
we'd better say whatever we want to say.  For example, for 'Patlabor 2'
(1993), Miya-San gave me a hard time saying such things as it's unfair, or
cheating.  I also always talk about Miya-San's work.  About Ghibli films:
'Nausicaa' - this is 'The Spaceship Yamato (Star Blazer)' Miya-San style.
He dressed it up a lot, but it was filled with the emotion of a Kamikaze
attack.  In that sense, this is a powerful film which was made out of the
ideology itself, supported by heroic energy.
  'Laputa' - Among Ghibli films, I like this best.  Since it has a good
structure as a boy's adventure story.  In this film, what he wants to do in
making a film and the emotions he (Miya-San) holds are well-balanced.  In
'Nausicaa', the balance was really tipped -laughs-.  However, I got a chill
from the scene where humans fell from the sky and Muska laughed
'Humans are like garbage!'.  Somewhere, there is such a very cruel side like
'All the humans should die'.
  'Totoro' - Despite it's fundamental flaw of having no other choice than
transplanting Trolls from Northern Europe to depict his ideal, beautiful
Japanese countryside, he pulled it off with sheer force.  I can understand
why kids love it, since it plays to the audience as much as it can.  But since
I'm (also) a creator, I'm resolved not to be carried away by it.
  'Kiki's Delivery Service' - When the era wanted (that movie to be made),
Suzuki Toshio pursuaded Miya-San to make this film (against Miya-San's
will), based on his (Suzuki's) own instinct as a great producer.  As a Miya-
San work, I think it plays to the audience too much, and falls apart.  I
suspect he got depressed after that.  He took a hiatus for about two years
after that, you know.
  'Porco Rosso' - In short, it's a personal novel (Shi Shyousetsu).  He
(Miya-San as Porco?) put on such airs and spoke such flashy lines, posing
as a pirate, but that's all self-excusing.  I think it would have been good if
the ending was such that he took off the pig's head, and Miya-San's face
showed up underneath it, (saying) 'I'm sorry'.  I think it would have been a
fine film if the hero was a pig who could only say 'Oink Oink', but he was
very good at air battles.

[Side note: Shi Shousetsu (personal novel) is a genre which is very popular
in Japanese literature.  It's about an author's personal life, but a bit different
from autobiography.  It's more introvert.]

  I have tons of things I want to say about Takahata-San -laughs-, but
'Grave of the fireflies' attracts my attention most.  That's an immoral world,
since it's a story of incest.  And the image of death is lined up right behind
it.  In that sense, it was an erotic movie, and it gave me chills.
  His (Takahata's) other works aren't my cup of tea to start with.  He is
very particular about descriptions, but to me, they all look quibbling.  But
in truth, as a director, I was most influenced not by 'Conan', but by 'Anne
of Green Gables'.  I was astounded by how broad the range of direction can
be.  Because, there was no story.  It's just washing dishes, or watching a
carriage go by.  And it's a long (scene).  But, this has tremendous power.
In that sense, my eyes were opened.
  Though I complain a lot, I think it would be boring if those two stopped
making (films).  I guess I'd feel strangely empty.
  I talk a lot about Miya-San and Ghibli everywhere, and although people
nod when they are listening (to me), once they see (Ghibli films), they
(change their opinions) to `Well, but I still love them'.
  In terms of the persuasiveness of their films, it is true that they have just
such a power, and it is also true that they have what I don't have.  You can
say that they have their own instinct for appealing to the general public.  I
think they have extraordinary energy in terms of making what they want to
make, while surviving in the general consumer society with their
ideological constitution of the `60s intact.  In the usual case, they should've
been put into a museum a long time ago.
  At one point, they almost were (put into a museum).  But they made a
splendid comeback, because they put up a united front.  Each was able to
make (a film) because the other made (a film).  How they are tuned into
each other is really something.  Those two are not on good terms at all.  If
you think they are on good terms, you're totally wrong.  In a sense, they
are like a cat and a dog, and each has a part of the other he can't accept.
Despite that, they can put up a united front without hesitation, since they
are from the people's front generation.  That's the world I can't get into.
  Well, I've never seen such an interesting person since I started working.
Miya-San is one of my friends whom I can really trust, but I don't agree
with him in the end, and I shouldn't.
  I can say I became shrewd, learning from their aggressiveness, and I drew
many lessons from them about how not to do things.  And I was also
taught the realistic aspects of making a movie, such as how to speak to a
client. I learned a lot (from them) about how to behave and what to tell to
whom, in order to make a movie I want to make.  Thanks to that, my life
became easier, and I was encouraged very much.
  I have nothing I want from them.  It won't matter to them, but as my
personal wish, I just want to see how they exit, including how they take the
responsibility for what they've been doing.  I have almost no expectation
for them to show us something new, or some new development. It is true
that they showed us great things at one point in time.  Why would you
want more (from them)?
  In Miya-San's case, his hair became totally white, and his stomach became
so weak, he can't even eat a Katsudon (a fried pork and rice bowl, a bit
greasy).  Since his hands no longer move (easily), I heard that he puts
Elekiban (a small magnet patch to improve blood flow, Japanese put this
on their shoulders and necks to ease their muscle pain) on his arms.  Even
so, he is still working because he loves to work.
  I'm sure it will be a fight if I say so, but, his mission in history has ended.
Speaking from my experience in watching (his works), I think he peaked
with 'Conan the Future Boy' or 'Lupin III, the Castle of Cagliostro'.  After
he moved to Ghibli, (things started) to decline.  This has been the ten years
in which the substance of the works declined, while the quality of them
improved.  But I think of him as a lucky man, since he has done everything
(he wanted to do).
  He always says he wants to go back to the mountain.  He has such a
feeling, too.  Still, he comes back to the studio and makes much noise,
because it's a kind of karma of a creator.  When he is shouting at the
studio, he can feel his existence in his heart -laughs-.  So, I think he'll keep
going as long as he can move around.
  Actually, I really don't expect him to go quietly in a mature way.  He can't
have a simple retired life, living in a cottage on a mountain, writing picture
books of trees and insects, and waiting for children to come by.  If he
became so, I think I'd feel desolated.

May 17, 1995, At Kokubunji, Production IG